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Can Clone from laptop Internal NVMe, PCIe, M.2 SSD to external NVMe, PCIe, M.2 in USB enclosure

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S G
Regular Poster
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Comments: 104

Have Acronis 2019 and Dell XPS 15 9530, 9550 & 9570.

Want to clone internal 1TB NVMe, PCIe M.2 SSD to external 1TB NVMe, PCIe, M.2 that's in a USB enclosure that supports NVMe, PCIe, M.2.

They have enclosures on Amazon NVMe PCIe M.2 Enclosure

Want to know if I will be able to clone from internal 1TB NVMe PCIe M.2 to external 1TB NVMe, PCIe M.2 via USB connection using Acronis 2019, then:

  • Boot off the External M.2
  • Or swap External with Internal, then boot...

Historically, this wasn't possible because there were no USB enclosures that supported NVMe, PCIe M.2 SSDs...

One had to put target NVMe, PCIe, M.2 in system and connect USB drive that contained full backup image, boot off recover media, then restore image to the internal NVMe, PCIe, M.2 SSD.  And if system was set to RAID in bios, that would have to first be changed to SATA...

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Forum Hero
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Comments: 7750

Roger that.  So far, I've been able to copy back and forth and backup just fine with mine.  Hope you didn't get a dud, or at least if you did, that you get it swapped out.

I'm holding out to see what the new 970 Evo Plus are going to cost, but that Silicon Power is still tempting me for the price.  Just wish there were a few more reviews about it.  I've had other Silicon USB flash drives in the past that worked fine, but still not sold on it without someone else's bench marks.

Forum Hero
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S G

If you are having crashes have you looked at Event Viewer to gather details?

Have you tried uninstalling USB drivers and then reinstalling them?  This often fixes such issues.

Another thing to consider is power.  USB 3.0/3.1 use more power than previous versions.  Since you are using laptops here, are you running them on battery while copying data?  If so I would recommend plugging them into a power source instead and see if that makes a difference.

Forum Hero
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Bobbo,

Do you know what type of NAND the SP drives use?  If you want raw performance stick with 2 cell NAND rather than 3 cell NAND. 

Unless Samsung can perform some real magic in the EVO PLUS drive controller I do not see where any performance boost will come from.

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Enchantech,

Will run this before testing existing 970 EVO...

Optimize-Volume -DriveLetter YourDriveLetter -ReTrim -Verbose  Replace YourDriveLetter with the letter of drive you want to trim.  This will only run from an admin PowerShell instance.

 

To reiterate trim operation...

You said if have 1TB SSD and write 200GB 5 times, the whole drive will have been written to...

 

So if whole 1TB has 0 ( zero ) data and has been fully trimmed...

Write 200GBs

Delete 200GBs

The first 200GB are not marked free...

Write 200GBs

The second write starts where first 200GB write left off so the first 200GBs on SSD isn't getting written over and over.  Correct?

I'm going to see if there's command or utility that says what percentage of drive is trimmed?

 

 

Forum Hero
Posts: 36
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S G,

The drive controller performs wear leveling on NAND drives so you are correct in interpreting my statement that all the drive cells are fully written to (1TB-200GB-5 times).

The PS command will give results of the operation after it runs.  I am not sure you will glean much information from it however.  As your drive is a storage only device results will be different than on that of a system drive.

The -Verbose paramater  of the command is what is displayed.  Retrim will display Backed allocations, Allocations trimmed, and Total space trimmed.

Forum Hero
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Enchantech, I can't find any really good specs on the SP drive, not even from the manufacturer. I'd guess it's TCL 3 layer nand but not sure how much in actuality. The one Amazon review I found shows crystal diskmark with about 3500 read and 3000+ write on the standard score. I know that doesn't necessarily equate to the fastest drive in real world 4k random writes, but it is what most NVME drives compare by and not too shabby. The real enticing thing is $165 for 1TB and 5 year warranty at something that is theoretically faster than the current EVO 970 which is about $100 more in 1TB.

The reviews I'm reading about the Evo 970 plus say it's a little faster than the 970 Pro until the cache runs out. However it has 96 layer 3d nand vs 64 so it doesn't run out as quickly and boosts performance over the current 970. If I had an Evo now, I wouldn't rush to upgrade, but since I'm in the market for one more, it's tempting if the price is right.

That said, the XPG I just bought is doing great and was only $108 for 512GB. The current EVO 970 just dropped to $119.99 on Amazon today. Curious where the EVO plus 970 will start.  But the price of the SP 1TB for twice the space and probably similar real world performance is really enticing!

Forum Hero
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Bobbo,

I looked for specs on the SP drive and like you found very little.  Not sure I would put any faith in the Amazon review bench as I do not consider things there reliable.

I found a TechPowerup write up that shows different specs too. SP Write up

I have upgraded my builds to Samsung 970 PRO 512GB drives.  I also purchased a 250GB 970  EVO cause I got it cheap.  The PRO drives really scream.  The EVO drive is fast but due to the capacity and 3D NAND, it can't keep up with the PRO versions.

I am attaching a Crystal Benchmark of a single 970 PRO 512GB drive  It is an OS drive, Win 10 PRO 1809  Tests are configured using a Queue Depth 32, 4 Threads on all tests.  You might use this as a comparison if you can find some on other drive benchs.

I bought the 970 PRO for $177 on the Egg.

 

Forum Hero
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Thanks Enchantech!  Yeah, I want the best, but I don't want to pay for it either.  If money was no object, I'd definitely get the 970Pro :)

Unfortunately, I can't justify spending the extra $$ on the 970 Pro for what I'd do with it.  For the most part, it seems like if you jump to 1TB, even current TLC 3D-NAND drives end up on "fairly-even" ground, although the 970 Pro certainly has the long game speed on big file transfers with MLC flash.  It's nice to see the Pro price coming down too, but still... a 1TB drive cost comparison is crazy to think about if you're willing to compromise on performance a little bit.  For how I could use the drive and for what I see other enthusiast drives being capable of these days I have to consider the cost of a 1TB NVME too: 

Samsung 970 Pro 1TB = $350

WD Black SN750 1TB = $250

Samsung 970 EVO 1TB = $248

XPG SX8200 Pro 1TB = $210 ($180 on Newegg)

Corsair Force Series MP510 = $200

HP EX920 1TB = $180 ($160 on Newegg)

Silicon Power 1TB = $165

And they all bench on Crystal DiskMark with the generic sequential write at 3K or better.  

I still want to do more research about the SP (maybe I'll contact Tom'sHardware or something to see if they could review it).  There are a couple of reviews on NewEgg now too - one bad one, but replacing to see if performance is the same. Weighing cost  / performance, the EVO Plus is more in step with what I'd be willing to pay right now, but since there is a rash of new drives coming out with the same Silicon Motion controller (including the one I just got, which I'm happy with so far), or the Phison 12 controller, prices are really competitive on everything not Samsung at the moment. No, they don't handle as smooth as the Samsung 970 Pro in the long game big file writes, but most of them aren't slouches either and come in 35%-50% cheaper.  It's a tough call when I factor in price.

Forum Hero
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I hear ya about price.  Having been able to take advantage of holiday sales is the only way I did it.  For myself, if I were considering another manufacturer I would research the controller manufacturer rather than the drive.  Last I knew there were only 3 NAND makers so that leaves controllers and the manufacture of the PCB as areas of concern.

In my experience over the years with SSD I have found that controllers are where most problems and/or advantages happen.  Not sure what you can find out these days but there has to be some info available.

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Enchantech,

Thanks for the Trim Command...

Trim C: Drive

 

 

Trim D: Drive ( 970 EVO in enclosure )

 

 

S G
Regular Poster
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Comments: 104

BEFORE TRIMMING

Have ~331GB sector to sector full backup image file that was created via booting off USB and using  Acronis 2019  which saved image to 970 EVO in enclosure.

 

I copied ( drag & dropped ) that image from Enclosure with 970 EVO to internal drive on XPS 15 9570 ( 1TB NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD )

 

Speeds were steady

 

 

 

S G
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Posts: 1
Comments: 104

After Trimming

Backed Up Samsung Note 8 ~238GB

 

Copied above backup from XPS 15 9570 Internal drive ( 1TB NVMe PCIe ) to 970 EVO in enclosure

 

Overall speeds were very good

 

 

Forum Hero
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S G

Things look good to me.  I take it you are not seeing the crashes anymore?  Looks like 2/3rd's of Drive D were trimmed so that those cells could be written to again.

I think you are going to have to run the Retrim regularly on your drive enclosure because I think that that device will power down via USB power management prior to the drive controller executing trim on the drive.  Not sure you can do anything about that situation.  You can change the Power Plan for USB in Windows but Mobo ACPI will still be in the picture.

Glad to see performance has been restored for you.

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Bobbo_3C0X1 wrote:

  It's a tough call when I factor in price.

 

 

Go with what's best for you...   If it works and you're happy with it, then that's all that matters...  I'm going to test out the other enclosures this week, and I'll get back with you.  I'm going to return the XPS 15 9570 today since return period of 90 days are almost up and I still have to reset it to factory settings, package it back up and get it delivered otherwise I'm out of couple thousand dollars...

 

For my particular case and situation I'm going to put one of these 970 EVOs in my XPS 15 and most likely keep the other one place it in one of the enclosures...

Goal is to be able to:

1) Transfer large single files ( ~300GB to shy of 1TB ) or large folders containing thousands to millions of smaller files to 970 EVO in enclosure ( folder sizes approximately same ~200GB to shy ~1TB ).

2) Clone internal drive in XPS 15 to 970 EVO in enclosure.

3) Perform very fast full system image backups of XPS 15 and other laptops & desktops / servers

4) Perform very fast full system image restores to the internal drive ( Samsung NVMe PCIe M.2 ) in the XPS 15

 

Ideally, hope I can save full system backup images on periodic and regular bases to 970 EVO in enclosure ( once a week or on same day whenever there are large changes or small changes that are significant ), knowing that I can trust backups to be full restored and system come up...

Right now my confidence based on my previous experience with earlier versions of Acronis prior to 2019 is very low concerning creating a full system image backup and restoring that image to internal Samsung NVMe PCIe M.2 in any of the XPS 15's I have...  It has always been hit or miss, with 90% of time XPS 15 had issues booting up or not booting up at all after a restore using previous versions of Acronis and I had at least five different full system images.  The only thing that saved me was backups that I had created using *nix ( Unix, Linux, Ubuntu, Solaris ) " dd " command...

The problem with trying to practice and experiment is, if restoring full system image to internal drive doesn't work, they system doesn't come up and a once fully functional boot drive has been rendered useless and lots of time ( months / years of system, software, applications configurations, changes, modifications are lost ).

 

Purchased a XPS 15 9570 to experiment practicing creating system images and restores and it went very smoothly and successfully...  Only caveat is I didn't install all software, applications I would normally be using; but the restores did work which is a big plus for Acronis 2019...

So I'm going to do following:

1) Create several, five, full system images backups writing to 970 EVO enclosure, then transferring images to larger & slower storage for archive, keeping one on the 970 EVO in case restore is needed...

2) Clone internal drive to newly purchased 970 EVO using Acronis 2019 then swap it with drive in XPS.  Hopefully system will come up without any incidents or issues of any kind

If above works, then I'll have lot more confidence that at least cloning works and feel a bit more at ease...  Plus purchasing several 970 EVOs, Plus or Pro, are significantly less expensive than purchasing two identical laptops to clone...

 

3) Should I decide to sign up for a boot camp, I'll PROBABLY purchase two identical laptops because restoring a system imaged created on one XPS 15 and presuming laptop gets totally destroyed or stolen and I have to purchase a newer model of the same XPS 15 because the original XPS 15 version no longer exists...  I don't think restoring a full system image created on an earlier version XPS 15 will come up 100% same on a newer version XPS 15 that has slightly different hardware.

 

While purchasing two laptops approximately $2000 to 2500 each ( $5000 total ) may seem expensive.  Boot camps can cost between $18-25,000 for tuition only and last anywhere from 4 to 6 months, with 15-17 hours of coding 5 days a week every week...  So cost of tuition, time and if have to relocate for the duration ( rent, food, etc... ) can be extremely expensive, but it's worth it to compress learning cycle / time...

 

###########################

 

Bobbo & Enchantech ( listed in alphabetical order ),

Want to thank both of you and others who have significantly helped me along the way over several years.  It's truly amazing and mind boggling that one can get such extraordinary, exceptional, superb & phenomenal professional support, assistance, courtesy, patience that actually ends in solutions that work...

From bottom of my heart, truly appreciate everything more than you could possibly know...

THANKS A MILLION

 

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Enchantech wrote:

S G

Things look good to me.  I take it you are not seeing the crashes anymore?  Looks like 2/3rd's of Drive D were trimmed so that those cells could be written to again.

Trimming definitely seems to have worked in the few initial isolated cases I tried.  I'm going to try it more and hopefully results will be same ( no crashes )...

I don't much about controllers shutting down, etc...   But I suspect as you mentioned, trimming eliminated time controller had to free up / release areas on SSD that had been marked as written to and deleted.  And without trimming time delay to trim and free up / release blocks / areas on SSD for writing simply took too long and something timed out...

 

Thanks for providing details on how to trim...

I TRUST YOU AND Bobbo...

Otherwise I would never run a command like that on my system out of fear it may destroy something and there be no point of return...

 

There are lots of suggestions on web / internet in all sorts of forums, from individuals, groups and even major top 100 fortune companies, but it's amazing how many times the suggestions have never been tested out by those providing the instructions or when looking through forum, the suggestions not only didn't worked, but it either destroyed data or rendered system unusable...

Forum Hero
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S G,

Sounds like you have things in good order, that's great!  The best to you in your endeavors!  Glad to have been of help to you and thanks for the accolades! 

Forum Hero
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Comments: 7750

Ditto to Enchantech's reply SG!!

Happy to help and glad the testing and experience are paying off!!! Yeah, I've run some commands from websites I later regretted and know your pain!!! I'm a tinkerer at heart and don't mind testing and practicing on my own (thanks to reliable backups) and am happy to pass on whatever I can so long as its safe and beneficial. 

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Just trimmed 970 EVO in Original Shinestar Enclosure.

Going to create 2 full image backups and 2 full image backups sector by sector, save images on external drive.

 

Then will perform several backups to the newly purchased 970 EVO just to confirm it's working fine, save those backups, trim 970 EVO, then clone system to the new 970 EVO and place that in system...

 

PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> Optimize-Volume -DriveLetter D: -Retrim -Verbose
Optimize-Volume : No MSFT_Volume objects found with property 'DriveLetter' equal to ':'.  Verify the value of the property and retry.
At line:1 char:1
+ Optimize-Volume -DriveLetter D: -Retrim -Verbose
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    + CategoryInfo          : ObjectNotFound: (::Char) [Optimize-Volume], CimJobException
    + FullyQualifiedErrorId : CmdletizationQuery_NotFound_DriveLetter,Optimize-Volume

VERBOSE: Invoking retrim on 970 EVO (D:)...
VERBOSE: Performing pass 1:
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VERBOSE:
Post Defragmentation Report:
VERBOSE:
 Volume Information:
VERBOSE:   Volume size                 = 931.51 GB
VERBOSE:   Cluster size                = 4 KB
VERBOSE:   Used space                  = 3.36 GB
VERBOSE:   Free space                  = 928.14 GB
VERBOSE:
 Retrim:
VERBOSE:   Backed allocations          = 931
VERBOSE:   Allocations trimmed         = 1038
VERBOSE:   Total space trimmed         = 927.62 GB

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Check out new 970 EVO Plus

 

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-970-EVO-Plus-MZ-V7S1T0B/dp/B07MFZY2F2

 

Forum Hero
Posts: 66
Comments: 7750

I just installed a 500GB 970 EVO Plus today and am planning on getting another after seeing what it can do!

This thing blows away the Adata XPG SX8200 Pro I just bought, as I found that one to be running very much slower in real world transfers (400Mb-700Mb write despite benchmarking at 3000Mb read and 2300Mb write). It was a great price but could not perform and is on its way back. 

I'm returning the XPG for another 500GB Samsung EVO Plus tomorrow! The 500GB 970 EVO Plus is hitting above 3000Mb on writes in benchmarks and am getting close to 2000Mb writes on 9GB file real-world copy tests which is phenomenal, especially for the price.

A 1TB version still punches at 1700Mb writes when the cache runs out, while the 500GB is only 900Mb, but I haven't been able to exhaust the cache on the 500GB drive in real world copies yet so it is still amazing me. Definitely looking forward to one more of these and then I can pop my old 950 in my external for good.

Forum Star
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Comments: 2720

I am seriously considering replacing my 970 EVO with one of these.

Forum Hero
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Comments: 7750

Ian,

I think you'd be happy with it! The 96-layer NAND seems to put the 500GB EVO Plus even above the 970 PRO in MOST usage. I was also considering the new WD Black, but I don't think it can touch this at the 500GB size and since it's the exact same  price, the new EVO was a no brainer for me this time.

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

I'm returning both my 970 EVOs 1TB...

First 970 EVO purchased " almost " always has issues with copying large single files ( 200GB - 600GB full image backups that were written to it from Acronis 2019 ) and never had any issues with writes ( whether it was trimmed or not )...  Trims allowed writes to remain steady throughout writes of large files...

Simply crazy that I can write to 970 EVO with no problems but not get 100% successful reads when dragging and dropping files from 970 EVO in enclosure to internal PM951 1TB in laptop or external USB 4TB, 5TB or 8TB drives... ( have fan blowing on enclosure and enclosure is cool to cold )...  Copies from 970 EVO in enclosure would just decrease in speed then stop all together...

 

The 2nd 970 EVO was never opened...

Both will be returned 1st thing Monday...

 

I've already ordered 970 EVO Plus 1TB replacement & will get 2nd 970 EVO Plus if all goes well with first one...

Seems 970 EVO Plus is better option than 970 EVO Pro in performance, cooling, price...

 

Plus for my testing, write endurance is great, so I can test away and use trimming commands Enchantech gave me and never have to worry about wearing out drive with specs of 600TBW.  To ensure writes are distributed across drive I'll trim only after writing 600GB to 800 GBs ...

 

Exceptional Endurance

The new standard in sustainable performance. Get up to 600 TBW* for lasting performance. The 970 EVO Plus provides exceptional endurance powered by the latest V-NAND technology and Samsung's reputation for quality.

*TBW: Terabytes Written

*TBW for 970 EVO Plus: 150 TBW for 250GB model, 300 TBW for 500GB model, 600 TBW for 1TB model

 

Supposedly comes with 5yr warranty from Samsung...

 

Unparalleled Reliability

Achieve a new level of drive confidence. Samsung's advanced nickel-coated controller and heat spreader on the 970 EVO Plus enable superior heat dissipation. The Dynamic Thermal Guard automatically monitors and maintains optimal operating temperatures to minimize performance drops.

 

Forum Hero
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Comments: 7044

Nice reports on the Evo Plus drives.  Thanks all!

S G
Regular Poster
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Comments: 104

I see conflicting reports on whether it's 94 or 64 layer V-Nand...

It's possible old documentation is being used to describe Plus and thus saying it's 64 layers & not 94...

 

 

S G
Regular Poster
Posts: 1
Comments: 104

Thinking of getting :

#1 
Dell XPS 15 7590.

OLED 4K (3840 x 2160 ) 

4GB GDR5 GTX 1650
64GB Mem
2TB PCIe
 

#2
Samsung X5 Portable SSD 2TB Samsung X5 Portable SSD - 2TB -
Thunderbolt 3 External SSD (MU-PB2T0B/AM) Gray/Red
equential read and write performance levels of up to 2,800MB/s and 2,300MB/s respectively
Samsung X5 Portable SSD 2TB 2,300MB/s writes / 2,800MB/s reads

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I would like to know is following:

If I partition the XPS internal 2TB into two primary partitions 1TB each...
1) One partition call it C:
2) Other partition call it D:

Question A.
Can I use acronis to make a system image back of C:, then restore it to D: and boot off of D:?
1) System Image Backup of C:, write to Samsung X5 wihich is fast ( 2,300MB/s )
2) Restore to D: from Samsung X5
3) Change Bios setting to recognize D:
4) Boot off of D:

Question B.
Is there a way to hide partition C: once it's been back up to D; so that D: comes up as C:?
If so, would system boot off of D: thinking it was C:

Question C:
1) If carve up 2TB PCIE into two primary partitions so C: has 1TB and D: has 1TB
2) Can clone from directly from  C: to D: using acronis 2019

Thanks in advance...

Forum Hero
Posts: 66
Comments: 7750

Question A:

You will never be able to boot off the external X5 portable drive.  This is a limitation of Windows and Microsoft licensing.  Full Windows OS only boot off of internal connections (unless you have Windows2Go capability in Microsoft Enterprise or Education).  

As for internal drives...

Yes, you could technically do A, but in reality it's not a good idea.  OS bootability first occurs at the bios and if you have 2 bootable partitions, you would need to pick the one you want in the bios bootmanager.  This may not be clear in the bios, which partition is which.

Also, it is HIGHLY NOT RECOMMENDED to have 2 clones in the same system at the same time.  The bios or Windows bootmanager may see them as the same partition and attempt "repair" the bootloader to "fix" the redundant entries. This could leave either, or both partitions unbootable. 

And, you can only have one active license per hardware (motherboard) at a time.  If you have the same license on both instances of an OS and switch between them, you're likely to flag with Microsoft and get your license deactivated.  Maybe not, but you won't be able to just have them both active at the same time if switching back and forth.

Personally, I would not recommend this setup.  Instead, take regular backups of your disk (and partitions) and if need be, restore them to fix any issues.

Question B:

FYI - you will never boot off D either.  In OS 1 (the original boot partition) it will always be C and your 2nd partition would be D (if that's the letter you assign it).  If you do boot into the 2nd partition, it will take on C as that is the letter Windows always assigns to the booted OS and the original partition will receive another letter (likely D, or whatever the next available letter Windows gives it).  So you don't have to hide any partitions, the booted partition will always be C and other partitions will always receive some other letter.  Again though, you should not attempt to have 2 of the same / clones OS installed  at the same time. You're likely to get an OS / partition collision and could end up not being able to boot at all.  

Question C:

I'm not sure and will have to test, but hopefully Steve or one of the other MVP's can weigh in if they've tried. Typically, cloning is disk level, but may offer partition cloning.  I would opt to not clone at all and instead would take backups of your disk and/or paritions and recover those as needed.  Again though, having 2 of the same OS installed on a disk at the same time, is likely to cause you more problems than not due to license conflict, OS ID signature conflict and bios issues identifying the differences between the "same" OS.

 

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If I partition the XPS internal 2TB into two primary partitions 1TB each...
1) One partition call it C:
2) Other partition call it D:

Question A.
Can I use acronis to make a system image back of C:, then restore it to D: and boot off of D:?

 Qualified Yes:  If you are going to setup your computer as a Dual-boot system, you could have 2 copies of Windows 10 installed.  1 on C, 1 on D.  I have done this on one of my laptops where I had Windows 10 Home Insiders version on C, and Windows 10 Pro on D.  I used EasyBCD to setup the BCD to allow booting from either, where the active OS always took drive letter C:

Question C:
1) If carve up 2TB PCIE into two primary partitions so C: has 1TB and D: has 1TB
2) Can clone from directly from  C: to D: using acronis 2019

No:  To use Cloning you need to select at a disk level but you cannot select the same disk as being both Source and Target.  You would need to either have 2 separate disks or else use Backup & Recovery.