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Cloud backup spontaneous LARGE incremental backup.

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Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

We had an issue earlier this year with ati 2019 .. daily cloud backups had been working fine with small incremental daily backups for a few weeks, then suddenly it appeared as if ati2019 cloud decided to perform a fresh FULL system backup again.  It acted like incremental, but the size matched a full new backup of the entire c drive (500+gb) and it took a few days to process.  We thought this was a fluke so we erased cloud backups and rebuilt them.  And a month or so later it happened again.  This causes us to run out of cloud storage space before it can complete, and it slows down our internet and computers for a few days, and we get warnings from our ISP about data caps exceeding.   We last had the issue around feb 2019.  We stopped using cloud backups because of it.

Does anyone else see ati2019 cloud backups suddenly perform a large backup?

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Legend
Posts: 73
Comments: 16432

Joe, I have not seen any backups to the Cloud that trigger what would look like a new full backup upload unless there has been a significant large change to my computer, i.e. new Windows Insiders build installed or major Windows Update such as the October one last year, but again the size is not equivalent to a new full backup.

Forum Hero
Posts: 62
Comments: 7485

Same for me as Steve. Major Windows updates change the partitions of the disk, resulting in disk ID changes which can trigger a large incremental - that might be the biggest killer, and potential issue with a full OS backup to the cloud 

I'm not backing up a full disk (OS) to cloud anymore either. I have one backup for my user profile and one for an off-site of my photos. I'm doing local backups (one to an internal disk, one to USB and one to NAS) for everything and using cloud as my off-sit, just in case for critical data if all of my locals go up in flames.

Forum Star
Posts: 116
Comments: 2557

Another possibility is that the disk drive has been fragmented; Acronis Cloud backups are block based, and defragging shits content to different blocks. All my systems use SSD which are not defragmented (trimming does not change the blocks in which data is located). However, I doubt that the removing file fragmentation would have such a big impact.

Ian

Beginner
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Comments: 13

sorry everyone for the slow response.  I was on vacation.  The drives in question are actually ssd, so I don't think it is the defrag option.  But I do think it might be the major windows update.  I am backing up to the cloud by selecting partitions.  Perhaps partition backup method is more prone to re-backing up all when there is a windows update.  Does anyone feel if i should change the backup type to entire pc, or file only?  When it does the really large incremental i think it was after a major windows update, and i think the incremental size was pretty close to the size of the entire disk.   

Legend
Posts: 73
Comments: 16432

Joe, as far as I am aware, there should be no difference in backing up to the Cloud by selecting partitions or selecting either the entire PC or individual disks (and their partitions).

Major Windows Updates can cause a lot of changes to the OS drive but shouldn't result in causing an incremental size similar to the size of the entire drive unless there is something else going on here?

I would recommend using the MVP Log Viewer tool (link below) and checking the actual Cloud backup log for the oversized backup upload to see if that offers any clues as to what happened?

Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

Ok, It happened again.  There was no major windows update in the window of issue, so that is not the cause.

mvp log viewer doesn't show much for clues.  The only clue is that the last good backup before the entire system starts a fresh duplicate cloud backup is 

6/7/2019 3:14:39 AM: Freed space: 18446744073701380096

That is way to much space freed!  what is that all about?

>>>The last good backup was on 6/7:

6/7/2019 2:00:00 AM: -----
6/7/2019 2:00:00 AM: ATI Demon started. Version: 23.5.1.17750.
6/7/2019 2:00:00 AM: Operation paul-cloud started by schedule.
6/7/2019 2:00:01 AM: Operation: Backup
6/7/2019 2:00:01 AM: Backup type: hybrid (disk level)
6/7/2019 2:00:01 AM: Operation: Consolidation
6/7/2019 3:14:39 AM: Freed space: 18446744073701380096
6/7/2019 3:14:39 AM: Cleanuped slices: 0
6/7/2019 3:14:45 AM: Operation has succeeded.

Start: 6/7/2019 2:00:00 AM
Stop: 6/7/2019 3:14:45 AM
Total Time: 01:14:45

>>> Then this was the first full duplicate backup it tried:

6/8/2019 2:00:00 AM: -----
6/8/2019 2:00:00 AM: ATI Demon started. Version: 23.5.1.17750.
6/8/2019 2:00:00 AM: Operation paul-cloud started by schedule.
6/8/2019 2:00:01 AM: Operation: Backup
6/8/2019 2:00:01 AM: Backup type: hybrid (disk level)
6/8/2019 2:00:01 AM: Operation: Consolidation
6/10/2019 3:51:27 AM: Freed space: 1060864
6/10/2019 3:51:27 AM: Cleanuped slices: 1
6/10/2019 3:51:32 AM: Operation has succeeded.

Start: 6/8/2019 2:00:00 AM
Stop: 6/10/2019 3:51:32 AM
Total Time: 2.01:51:32

Notice it took over 2 days to complete!  The next backup also was another total duplicate taking another 2+ days.  Then a one more, then the cloud storage was full and we got out of space errors.

We had setup a fresh cloud backup with pretty much default settings back around mid may.  So we only got about a month of backup before it started to go bat-crazy again keeps re-duplicating full backups.

We do run eset internet security.. not sure if something with that could be interfering.

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Forum Hero
Posts: 62
Comments: 7485

I'd open a support case with Acronis technical support to see if they can help identify the (or an) issue.  It shouldn't be trying to backup large chunks like that if new data wasn't added that would account for the need to.

That said, I've run into issues with the drive ID changing for any type of partition change.  You mention no major Windows update this time, but could there be any other culprit apps?

In my environment things like removing or adding bitlocker can cause this behavior, as can other encryption software like McAfee Endpoint Encryption, or just about anything else that encrypts and/or decrypts a drive.

Likewise some tools can add or modify their own recovery partition (McAfee Endpoint creates it's own recovery environment at the end of a disk, which changes the disk ID.

Full disk defragmentation can move so much data around at the sector level, it would all appear as being new data to backup as well.  It's not usually an issue with an SSD when using Windows 8 or newer since it relies on trim instead of defrag, but make sure defrag is off, if you're using an SSD.

Perhaps, as a test, could you create a local backup to an external USB or network drive and monitor it as well?  If it's only happening to the Cloud and not another local backup, you can pretty much be certain it's a cloud issue.  But, if it starts making these large changes, not just to the Cloud, but also to a new local storage medium (at least for testing), then you can be pretty sure the major change is happening locally on the machine.

Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

Thanks Bobbo

I had a case open with acronis the first time it happened back in January  and they said it is a known issue and that it MIGHT be fixed in april, they didn't want to do any further troubleshooting.  When I contacted them in May they said no update on the issue.  So I updated acronis and tried again.. same issue.   Also no details on why it is just happening to these 2 pc's.

There is no encryption on these pc's that I know of, not even bit locker.

The main drive is an SSD and the secondary is a hdd. I could check if defrag is running, but we did try local backups for the past 6 months and didn't notice any really large sporadic backups  (although it was set to do a full backup ever 10 incrementals.)

as far as defrag.. according to this document windows 10 detects ssd and sends TRIM hints only.. it will not defrag a ssd.  The systems with issues are windows 10.  (https://www.thewindowsclub.com/disable-defragmentation-ssd)

quite the puzzle for me.

Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

I had a case open with acronis in January. They took logs and such and then said the issue is know, but no fix until Maybe next update around april.  Contacted them after april, said no changes.  I tried again, and the issue is still there.

no major window update

no encryption

main drive is ssd, secondary is hdd. according to this doc: https://www.thewindowsclub.com/disable-defragmentation-ssd, win 10 doesn't defrag ssd's, it only sends Trim hints. So it shouldn't be a defrag issue.

We ran local backups the last 6 months without any sporadic large backups. (although it was set to do a full backup every 10 incrementals.)

Legend
Posts: 73
Comments: 16432

Joe, the focus by Acronis at present is in the beta testing of ATI 2020 which is probably where any fix for this issue is likely to be provided.

You may want to consider reviewing the ATI 2020 Beta forums and decide if you want to participate to see if this issue has been resolved or not?

Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

thanks.   Sigh, just seems like too much work.  I wish I knew what made these 2 particular computers have this issue.  I don't think all acronis clients are having the same problem.  I would be happy with a workaround solution or removing some problematic or conflicting setting.  I am surprised there aren't others posting about the same issue.

Forum Hero
Posts: 62
Comments: 7485

Joe, perhaps you can press the techs on the "known issue" mentioned above as to what is known about it (hopefully the cause)?

If it is known and these large backups are happening to you and others, that's no good for reliability, time lost doing extra data backups that shouldn't be happening, nor data usage for your cloud subscription.

Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

ya, I think I will try that again.

Beginner
Posts: 3
Comments: 13

I replied to the last ticket correspondence with acronis.  I guess they said known issue with unknown root cause.  I asked them if they now have any more information... we will see what the reply is in a day or two.

thanks.

 

Forum Hero
Posts: 62
Comments: 7485

Roger that.  Thanks for following up.  If this isn't an isolated issue, I hope they figure it out soon.  This is not confidence building, but am glad it's only occurring on a small subset of systems.  Still though, not good to happen at all.

Beginner
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haven't heard anything back yet.. will try to keep you updated..

Forum Moderator
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Joe D wrote:

haven't heard anything back yet.. will try to keep you updated..

Joe,

would you mind sharing the ticket ID? wanted to check the status of the investigation 

Beginner
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